I'm talking about The Bear, CC Sabathia. Who, let me say right now, I will always love for the 2009 season alone.
But let's remember that this is the same man who decided to finally get into shape...AFTER his playing days were over. Who will ever forget, for instance, those 3 years when he went a combined 23-26, in return for $71 million?
Um, everyone, if CC is lucky.
But not to be kept out of the spotlight, the pitcher who made Terry Forster, the original Fat Tub of Goo, look like Twiggy, had to weigh in on who the AL MVP should be this year (still 20 games before the end of the season, never mind the playoffs).CC felt it should be a fellow pitcher, of course: Shohei Ohtani, who he called—with his usual knack for verbiage—"the best player ever to play baseball."
As opposed to the best pumpkin ever to play baseball? But I digress.
Like most people who play the game, CC knows squat about its history. I suspect that his expertise in this case comes mostly from what various MLB suits and sportscasters tell him, and the often misleading stats they flash on the screen.
In fact, I hereby challenge CC to name five ballplayers who played before 1970. I also challenge him to come within 30 points of Babe Ruth's lifetime batting average, or within 40 wins of the Babe's lifetime victory total.
He's hardly alone. I remember when Reggie Jackson—an infinitely more knowledgeable individual—decided to embarrass himself by telling everyone that Gary Carter did not belong in the Hall of Fame. Reggie had barely seen The Kid play, in those pre-interleague years. And again, I doubt if he could have come anywhere close to telling you how Carter's numbers stacked up against those of other catchers at the time—or in the Hall.
But that didn't stop him.
Nor did it stop CC, who has, of course, zero idea of what Ruth did, or of how many more ballplayers in the past might well have pitched once a week and DH'ed the rest of the time, had they only been allowed to do so.
Willie Mays, for one, who was reportedly lights out as a young pitcher, until his father made him stop for fear of hurting his arm. Lou Gehrig, who set strikeout records in college. And of course The Babe, who only stopped pitching because he got bored.
I'll say it again: Shohei Ohtani is certainly a superb athlete, doing something truly terrific. He also does it all of once a week, for a team that has not so much as sniffed the postseason for the five seasons he has been with them.
As a pitcher, he is quite good—in the very limited, coddled capacity in which he is used.
As a batter, he is a .265 hitter with good power, who does not play any other position on the field.
He is, in short, sort of a combination Jose Urquiddy/ Franmil Reyes. Don't take my word for it; these are two of the players baseballreference compares him most closely to. (The batter they compare him MOST closely to is Pete Alonso—but then, Alonso plays the field pretty much everyday.)
If this is the guy who is to be, almost automatically, the MVP every year...well, then, that award has even less credibility than it did already.
CC was one tough hombre on the mound, but
ReplyDeleteI've heard him speak and he's no Einstein .\,
or even Epstein from Welcome Back Kotter.
Think about it, he thought being fat made you a better pitcher.
Judge is a shoo-in to win 2/3 of the Triple Crown with almost not protection; IN the MLB, not just the AL.
He might also lead the league in batting before it's over.
He performs in the toughest town in the AL. and he is carrying his team on his back--- towards at least a AL East Title, the strongest division in the AL.
O is certainly good, but is more of a circus performer or an overhyped sideshow attraction.
Where do the Angels play? They seem to change their town every year.
CC just proved he's not a rocket surgeon.
ReplyDeleteIs CC back on the sauce? Just wait next year "Bader will be the best player ever".... Brian Cashman
ReplyDeleteJust checked Ohtani's stats and compared him as a hitter to Pete Alonso. Hmmmm.... It's closer than I thought, actually. I still think Alonso is a better hitter, but they do have similar stats, except for Alonso with 22 more RBI. As a pitcher, Ohtani has 2.55 ERA/115hits in 141 IP/1.06 WHIP. So overall, pretty good pitching numbers + pretty good hitting numbers.
ReplyDeleteDoes that make him the MVP? I don't think so. He is a DH/pitcher, so he doesn't play the field. Judge is putting up a potential triple crown season with excellent defense in RF, and half the time in CF!
The full time player should get the MVP. No question about it. CC may have lost too much brain tissue when he took off weight. Not that he was ever that smart on the mound either. (He wasn't.)
If Judge is robbed of another MVP, it'll be because of the anti-Yankee bias amongst the voters for the MVP. Sportswriters do the voting these days, right? What the hell do they know? The vast majority of sportswriters in the press are incredibly stupid.
ReplyDeleteOr the writers are doing HOF Cashman a solid, trying to keep Judge's contract down. Can't you hear Cashman "Well it's not like he was MVP"
ReplyDeleteWell, in that case let Judge and his agent remind Cashman that judge led the yankees to the 2017 WS win.. And why not claim WS MVP.. Someone had to win..... Negotiations
DeleteThat was an impressive bit of idiocy that flushed its way through the small intestine of sports journalism yesterday.
ReplyDeleteGolly CC . . . it's flash rhyme time . . .
No more burgers
No more sauce
Let's lament
The brains he's lost
And only Salads
Lightly Tossed
To keep him
Chewin'
So he can't be
Spewin'
Anymore of his CC BS, OK!?!
thank you very much
When Ohtani pitches once a week, and plays the outfield or first base every game when he doesn't pitch--with a DH spot here and there for rest--and then he puts up sub-3.00 ERAs, hits .300 or close to it, and slams 35 or 40 home runs every year until he gets creaky, THEN, and only then, will the guy impress the hell out of me.
ReplyDeleteOtherwise, meh. The Angels saw box office by letting him continue pitching. Most MLB teams would never have allowed a guy who could both pitch and hit to do both, even though some doubtlessly could and can. Pick one, son, and stop being a sideshow.
So this whole Ohtani mania is just a cooked-up, hyped-up, fucked up situation that deserves some respect for the guy, but nowhere near as much as he gets. If he wants to pitch and bat, let him play a position, too. At least until he can't. Then he can DH every day like old guys do.
Meanwhile, consider this excerpt from ESPN.com. These are the kinds of aggregate performance gaps that haven't been seen since Ruth. If you want to compare someone to the Babe, it's not Ohtani. It's Judge 2022:
"While the focus is understandably on his extraordinary home run total, Judge's domination compared to his peers is perhaps even more astonishing. Consider his American League-leading offensive totals across the board compared to the closest AL hitter in each category:
"55 home runs: 20 more than Mike Trout
121 RBIs: 12 more than Jose Ramirez (and Ramirez has 16 more than the No. 3 guy)
113 runs scored: 27 more than Marcus Semien and Jose Altuve
343 total bases: 71 more than Shohei Ohtani
1.090 OPS: 101 points higher than Yordan Alvarez (and Alvarez is 95 points ahead of No. 3 Ohtani)"
And this from the Washington Post"
ReplyDeletehttps://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2022/09/09/aaron-judge-home-runs-babe-ruth/
"Through Saturday, Judge had homered in a staggering 9.15 percent of his plate appearances. (Ruth’s best, it’s worth mentioning, was 8.75 percent in 1920.)...
"What it amounts to is that Judge is outpacing the major leagues at a rate not seen since Ruth, who basically played a different sport from his contemporaries. In 1920, Ruth hit 54 homers when his closest pursuer, George Sisler, managed only 19. (That year, Ruth homered more times than all but one other team.) The following season, Ruth clubbed a then-record 59 homers when the next best in the majors — Ken Williams and Bob Meusel — each hit 24.
"Judge’s 19-home run lead on Schwarber? It would be the largest since Ruth hit 54 and the next-best duo of Hack Wilson and Jim Bottomley managed 31 in 1928. In the 93 seasons since, only Jimmie Foxx — who beat Ruth by 17 homers in 1932 and 14 homers in 1933 — has approached such a gap."
Hoss, you really nailed it. IMO, logic would dictate that his batting and pitching WAR numbers should be added together before intangibles start to come into play. Currently, Judge leads Ohtani with a 9.0 WAR to Ohtani with a 8.1 WAR. This is the version of WAR that ESPN uses. Of course Ohtani has played without the muscle seizing pressure that Judge is subject to, compared to in a city that is interested in baseball when the team is doing well after 145 games or so....
ReplyDeleteGREAT stats, JM, thanks!
ReplyDelete@ "C", could you please explain?
ReplyDeleteCashman once attempted to say that the yankees were the true WS winners of 2017 and that the team and himself should get credit for the win. Ok. So if thats cashmans logic. Then remind him. "pay me, i won you your imaginary WS"... It was also in reference to "if cashman says." well, you didnt win MVP" (2022)...
DeleteThe remarkable thing about the Babe is that he played ACROSS baseball eras...in fact, he CHANGED the eras, almost alone.
ReplyDeleteSo the MLB propagandists show us Ohtani's raw numbers and say, "Well, nobody's ever done THAT!"
Technically correct. What they ignore is how the game changed.
For instance, in 1918, Ruth led the AL in home runs with 11 (not to mention slugging and OPS), and went 13-7, with a 2.22 ERA—in a year that was not only still in the deadball era, but which was shortened because of World War I. The Babe got to play in only 95 games.
In the World Series that year, Ruth pitched a 1-0 shutout in the opener, then tripled home two runs in Game 4, as the Sox won, 3-2. In that effort, the Babe extended his then-record shutout string in World Series innings to 29 2/3, before finishing the game.
(Ruth was a little off that game, mainly because he had entertained himself the day before smashing the straw boaters on men on the train back to Boston, and injured his hand. Overall, the Babe gave up an inside-the-park homer in the first World Series game he ever pitched—a 14-inning, complete-game win in Brooklyn—and then those 2 runs in the 8th against the Cubs, on 2 singles, a walk, and a wild pitch. Without those plays, he would not have given up a run in 31 innings of World Series pitching.)
The fact is that Ruth played the game he had to play. He didn't come close to matching Ohtani's usual strikeout totals, either at the plate or on the mound, because that's not the game that could be played.
On the other hand, in 147 starts, he threw 107 complete games and 17 shutouts. (Make that 110 and 18 out of 150, in you include the Series.) Beyond leading the AL in ERA, complete games, and shutout each once, he had a 2.28 lifetime ERA>
Before, during, and after he changed the game, he led the AL in OPS in 13 seasons out of 14. (The one year he missed, the season of his vast, mysterious intestinal explosion, his OPS was .936).
And this was all while playing the field everyday, and generally playing it well.
To paraphrase Rickey Henderson, if Judge doesn't win the MVP this year, I'm going to start blowing things up.
ReplyDeleteLet's not forget that baseballs were used until they started to come apart at the seams. Something tells me that offense would have been suppressed. It would be fun if baseballs could be switched between different eras!
ReplyDeletePS, CC should refrain from speaking in public.
ReplyDeleteAnd thank YOU for the stats, Hoss!
ReplyDelete
ReplyDeleteI am afraid that I am so stupid that I don't understand this discussion. Help me!
1A. MVP? Who cares. My team is spozedly in the biz of winning World Series. Can being voted the MVP winner (which becomes public AFTER the W.S.) affect the outcome of a single W.S. pitch?
1B. Who votes on the MVP thing? Gammonites. You can look it up. They didn't seem to have such a good reputation around here BEFORE. Now we are gonna respect their voting? Why?
2. Could you really give a flying leap at a rolling donut for ANY of CC Sabathia's opinions about anything? Why this, then?
3A. Re Oh-my-god-tani -- can you imagine what Babe Ruth would have been able to do if he was the DH? Other than eat a lot of franks and drink lots of beer inbetween at-bats, I mean.
. . . for that matter, can you get your mind around what Mickey Mantle would have done as a 6-days-a-week DH?
3B. This is the USA. Money talks. Ohtani is being paid $5.5M in 2022. He's a free agent in the coming months. Judge's 2022 salary? $19M. Don't tell me the O-man plays in a small-market city!!!
3C. Judge already turned down a huge bucket of green stuff. Do you really think the Pitcher/DH is going to get $$$ anywhere near what Judge will be paid (by somebody) for 2023? REALLY?
4. My final stupid point: Are we concerned about this MVP nonsense because, while we can do nothing about it, it's worthwhile to plague ourselves on THAT subject -- because we all suspect that the NYYs are going to make only a cursory, brief appearance in this year's post-season?
- - -
For the record, I'm really happy that Joey Gallo and Gary Sanchez play elsewhere. Those might be the major accomplishments for the Yankees in 2022. Unless they actually sign Judge for the future.
BY THE WAY: I told my friend The Mets Fan that his team probably would sign Judge. His response: "Yeah. And he'll tear an ACL 5 minutes later."
So there's that...
Yep, I guess it is a pointless discussion. But as you say in your point #4, since they're going to be eliminated as soon as they make the playoffs, the only things to root for are Judge breaking the home run record(s) and Judge getting an MVP (which he has already been robbed of at least once).
ReplyDeleteWhen Judge is robbed of another MVP this year, that will be the second time that the stupid sportswriting frauds have robbed a Yankee in favor of Ohtani. Andujar got robbed of the Rookie of the Year in 2018.
What Hammer said. And it would be nice for Judge to get the recognition he deserves. He is the most valuable player in the league, and while there are politics where the voters are involved, it is extra sweet if those anti-Yankee bastards admit that a Yankee earned the award.
ReplyDeleteIt's not practical in terms of winning a title, but this is baseball. What the hell is practical about any sport, or following any sport? This is all for jollies. None of it matters for shit. So why should we stop at winning a meaningless "World" Series? Let's root for the MVP, too.
@ "C", gotcha.
ReplyDelete@Joe Formerlyof Brooklyn, MVP selections Are important. Fans and HOF voters still, and in the future will look at the winners, then look even more closely at the stats. It still means something. And it still pisses me off that Mattingly is the last Yankee, Munson before him to win the MVP!?! Fifty years, seven rings, but only two MVP seasons?! Yeah, I'm proving some of your points, but barring a collapse by Judge our man deserves the Ring. If not then I will look at the sport like I look at pro rasslin.
BTW, let's not be so glum regarding the playoffs. We might have the whole squad back together, and they played some pretty good ball for four months.
I hear ya, Kevin! And good points all around.
ReplyDeleteBut one small correction? There HAS been another Yankees MVP since Mattingly in 1985. His name was—wait for it!—Alex Rodriguez, in 2005 and 2007.
Sigh. I know, I know. Jeter deserved to win in 1999 (lost to a known juicer) and in 2006 (lost to the second best player on the Twins).
Hoss, as I was thinking about Yankee players in my cranial filing system, A-Rod's card was somehow missing!!! Yeah, Jeter losing in '06 is still raw for me. As for the known/obvious steroid users, the only thing that may actually be more contemptible than the players are the fucking suck-up writers who are taking money to change the narrative.
ReplyDelete@Kevin, In the immortal words of John Sterling, you should be "whipped, flogged and flagellated"! Come to think of it, I clean forgot about A-Rod's MVP too. We should whip, flog and flagellate each other!
ReplyDelete@Hammer, I'd have to brush up on my Gregorian chants first!
ReplyDelete